EDVIEW360
Hosted by Pam Austin and Greg Hullett, these discussions will feature dialogues with experienced educators, inspiring thought leaders, social media influencers, and leading education innovators.
EDVIEW360
Dyslexia: Understanding the Science and Evidence-Aligned Instructional Approaches
Join this robust discussion about the key features of the Structured Literacy approach proven to work for students with dyslexia. Listeners will learn useful strategies and classroom tips with an emphasis on mastery learning and student outcomes.
Our expert will discuss:
- What is taught in the Structured Literacy approach
- How the Structured Literacy approach is taught
- Why Structured Literacy is proven for students with literacy challenges
- The difference between Structured Literacy and typical literacy practices
- Strategies and activities for the classroom
Narrator:
Welcome to EDVIEW360.
Dr. Rebecca Tolson:
So, you think about other areas. ADHD, executive functions. You think about other areas that kids struggle? Kids can learn how to read. The statistic I gave at the beginning even kids with dyslexia, 95% of kids can learn to read.
Narrator:
You just heard from dyslexia expert and adjunct professor Rebecca Tolson, who is our guest today on EDVIEW360.
Pam Austin:
Hello, this is Pam Austin. Welcome back to the EDVIEW360 podcast series. We are so excited to have you with us today. I'm conducting today's podcast from my native New Orleans, LA. Today, we are excited to welcome a trailblazing thought leader, researcher, and educator who has dedicated her life's work to improved reading for every child, especially those with learning challenges like dyslexia. Dr. Rebecca Tolson is known nationwide as an advocate for students with reading challenges and in her home state of Ohio she's a hero for the work she's accomplished. Dr. Tolson believes in the power of Structured Literacy for all students and she knows and teaches it's critical nature for students with dyslexia.
Let me tell you just a bit more about Dr. Tolson. Rebecca Tolson has a Ph.D. in curriculum and instruction from the University of Akron and is a member of Academic Therapy Association at the level of qualified instructor and certified academic language therapist and a certified dyslexia therapist through the International Dyslexia Association®. Dr. Tolson began her career in education as a fifth-grade teacher and later transitioned to teaching both children and adults with learning disabilities. She is a literacy dyslexia consultant and teaches as an adjunct professor for Ohio's Walsh University in the Masters of Dyslexia Therapy Program and serves as a chair of the Ohio Dyslexia Committee. Welcome, Dr. Tolson.
RT:
Thank you. It's good to be here.
PA:
Oh, so excited to have you here. Our talk today … It revolves around dyslexia and how to meet the needs of students with dyslexia. Let's talk a bit about your background and what gave you an awareness of dyslexia.
RT:
Yeah, I started my career, as you said, in fifth grade. And, I have to be honest, when I first started teaching, I knew very little about instruction for struggling readers, and in my fifth-grade classroom I discovered kids struggling to read, being accurate and fluent with their reading and being able to comprehend on grade level which I was mentored by someone in my school, a language therapist, who said you need to take more classes in the structure of the language to help your students, and that's exactly what I did. So, my first Structured Literacy class was an Orton-Gillingham-based course and it was like starting new. All the terminology. The academic language and just the process of starting teaching a student to read from the beginning. It was all new for me and that first class started me on a road and a passion toward teaching struggling readers and learning more and more about dyslexia.
PA:
That's wonderful. That first step forward was the right step. That's what it sounds like, Dr. Tolson.
RT:
It was. It was for me, and I feel like my students that I've worked with over the last 30 years.
PA:
Lucky you. That is awesome to hear. What evidence-based instructional approaches can help students, and I'm sure you learned quite a bit from that first step and onward, how do they help students with dyslexia learn to read? And, can you mention some research while you're at it?
RT:
Yeah, absolutely. Structured Literacy is the approach. And, Structured Literacy provides instruction in the structure of the English language. It's explicit. It's systematic. It's cumulative in its data-driven instruction. And what we know about Structured Literacy comes from the scientific evidence, starting with The National Reading Panel, which was a meta-analysis of what we know about teaching reading and that was published in the year 2000. And, from there, we have additionally the Institute of Educational Science Practice Guides, and those practice guides also are a compilation of research and evidence on teaching reading. And we have practice guides from the U.S. Department of Education on foundational reading skills, kindergarten through third grade. There's a practice guide on English learners, there is a practice guide for students at risk for reading disabilities, and then also for adolescent struggling readers, just to name a few. And, what these practice guides do is they show the level of evidence that we have to date on teaching reading in those areas.
Another area of research I want to mention is the cognitive neuroscience studies, such as the ones from Stanislas Dehaene. He clearly articulates in his lectures, in his research, in his books on how we learn to read, and it's a systematic, explicit way to teach reading. It's not intuitive. We're not born learning how to read. We are born with the intuitiveness to speak, but reading is taught. It's learned. And, so, that's where we get these studies that show how learning evolves in the brain, from cognitive neuroscience. Another piece of research. I got a couple more, Pam. I think these are very important. This is the research that comes out from the Center for Dyslexia at the Middle Tennessee State University, and Dr. Timothy Odegard and his team have published numerous studies and research on the area of Structured Literacy and dyslexia and through the Annals of Dyslexia, which is a public peer-reviewed journal specifically on dyslexia. Another area that you can find some research and backing for Structured Literacy that I think is very current and timely is The Reading League Journal. And, Drs. Emily Solari and Dr. Colby Hall … They have research and publications on Structural Literacy, Orton-Gillingham from The Reading League Journal. And, The Reading League is another nonprofit organization that is about what we know and translating the science into practice.
And the last research that I wanted to talk about with you today is Dr. Jan Hasbrouck. She states that the compelling evidence from a convergence of research on reading is clearly indicating that approximately 95% of all students can achieve literacy skills at an approaching grade level. Now, I'm going to repeat that 95% of all students, and that statistic includes students with dyslexia and other learning disabilities. And we aren't there. We are not in our schools, in our districts, in our states. We are not accomplishing grade-level reading for even close to 95%, but we have the research to show that can happen. So, that's where I wanted to make sure that I share some of those research options.
PA:
I do love the way that you laid out the research, the convergence of research. I love that term from The National Reading Panel back in 2000, onward listing information that we've learned over time from research, from renowned researchers as well as educators. And you said something that really touched my heart, how it translates into practice. And you mentioned that we're not there, and I think it all goes back to the translation of this into practice. Right?
RT:
Absolutely, yes, yes.
PA:
And as an educator myself, I went for a time not knowing and not realizing myself. And you mentioned the fact that Structured Literacy is the structure of language and I can remember telling my kids very early on in my career English is just crazy like that when it truly is structured. And you mentioned the systematic, explicit instruction that we need to provide because it's not intuitive.
And thank you for sharing all of this information, Dr. Tolson. Let's talk a little bit more about Structured Literacy. Since we now know that, yes, english language does have a structure. All languages do. Tell our listeners what it is and how it is taught.
RT:
Structured Literacy. I put it into two different areas. It's what we teach and it's how we teach. What we teach is what we call language domains. We teach the phonology layer of our language, the speech-sound systems. We teach the orthography, which is the letters, spelling, and writing aspect of our language. Structured Literacy also focuses on areas of semantics, which is based on word meanings and vocabulary. Also is our syntax, which is our grammar or word order in our language, and morphology, which is the smallest unit of meaning in a word. Lastly, we have Structured Literacy focusing on what we call pragmatics and that's the social use of our language and formal use of language. So, what we teach and if you notice, I'm saying language a lot in our language. So, Structured Literacy focuses on all of those areas. I like to call them domains of language. Also, Structured Literacy just doesn't tell you what to teach. It tells you how to teach it.
So, how to teach reading in a structured language way means that we are systematic, and systematic is using a scope and sequence of the language in an order that is simple to complex.
It's an order that makes sense for our students and that order is based off of our etymology of our language. In other words, our Anglo-Saxon words come before our Latin words because Anglo-Saxon words use patterns that are simple and they're monosyllable and they're easier to decode and understand common everyday words for, let's say, K–2, kindergarten, second grade. But then, the next layer in that system would be Latin, where you have multisyllabic words with prefixes and suffixes and those are harder to decode and read. So, that system means it makes sense, and then we would, in a scope and sequence and Structured Literacy, you would maybe move in from Latin and add Greek, which those are more disciplinary literacy layers. In other words, middle grades or upper-elementary to middle to high school, where you're getting into mathematical terms, scientific terms, more advanced technical language.
So, the system or scope and sequences about the layers of our language and how students and teachers can systematically learn the language that builds to mastery. Then, after the systematic piece, we have to be cumulative.
So, this is not a chapter. So, this is not about teaching a chapter like chapter one. Back in the day, when I learned how to teach, it was about basal readers from the teacher's manual. So, you taught chapter one and then you did a chapter test and you moved on to chapter two. It really didn't think about much more you know about chapter one. So, just as long as I did the chapter test and moved on to the next area. That’s not how Structured Literacy works. It's cumulative in the language. So, you're constantly reviewing. You're constantly building to mastery.
Also, one of my favorites is explicit and direct. So, explicit instruction means I am going to teach every language concept, not inferencing, not just saying, ‘Oh, they probably understand that.” Everything is directly, explicitly taught and the process is data-driven. So, I am going to teach, review, and practice what my students need, based on data, and that data is not just at the end of the chapter. That is data I'm taking informally every day and then I move into more formal data. So, I'm not only screening and progress monitoring and measuring my outcomes. I'm making sure that my students are empowered. Empowered with mastery to become independent readers, writers, and spellers.
PA:
Wow, that was quite a bit of valuable information there, Dr. Tolson. Beginning with the domains of language. I love how you divided it into the what and how. So, the what, mean the domains of language. Moving into the how, those layers of language that you laid out so explicitly really appreciate hearing those and how we provide instruction for that. Again, I'm hearing those words explicit, direct, the use of data, and what was that last thing you said? What is our goal here for our students?
RT:
Our goal, for me, is that all students are independent readers, writers, and spellers. In other words, if I am below grade-level reading, I need someone to support me to access the curriculum or the language. I'm always relying on somebody else. If I can do that independently, I'm empowered. That's my goal. That a student is empowered to gain access to knowledge and information independently.
PA:
Excellent. And I believe that's every educator's goal. That's their wish to see that their students are strong, independent readers and writers. Thank you, Dr. Tolson. So, you laid out wonderfully what Structured Literacy is. So, can you tell me what's the difference between Structured Literacy and typical literacy practice? You gave us an example with the dreaded march through a chapter, right? Why is Structured Literacy essential for students with dyslexia?
RT:
Well, here's the components of Structured Literacy. So, in typical literacy practices, we may see embedded phonics instead of explicit phonics. So, in other words, when in guided reading groups or a teacher that's working through a book with a student that's leveled, you may find that a student misses a word. So, the teacher would provide corrective feedback or provide instruction as it comes up, as a child misses a word or student misses a word, and then they would teach that you know pattern as needed. In other words, if they don't miss it, then I'm not going to teach it. That's embedded into the phonics. Whereas explicit means, I'm going to take the concepts of the language, all sound-symbol correspondences, all reading syllable types, all syllable division rules, and I'm going to explicitly teach them. And, so, that direct, explicit instruction and practice them to mastery. So, that's an example of a difference the direct, systematic instruction in the language using a scope and sequence vs. thematic units. That I might pick a theme and that's how, back in the day, that's how I was trained. That's how I will be the first to admit, that's how I taught. All right, it was all about literature-based and thematic units. I didn't teach the structure of the language systematically and so it's based around a theme and if needed, I would then add instruction in an area.
So, in a typical lesson, you might see leveled readers in a typical classroom. In Structured Literacy, you will see decodable readers and that means that the decodable readers are controlled text based on what I've taught my students.
So, that's where I have taught them a concept. I am going to let them practice that concept after I've taught and that those concepts build together so their level increases based on what I've taught. Leveled readers will have concepts taught and some concepts not taught. So, that actually promotes more guessing and memorizing and looking at pictures vs. actually decoding. And lastly, I wanted to mention another area that you might see that's different between the two different methods is oral reading with a teacher for corrective feedback. You will see the teacher is making sure that they hear those students read and providing immediate corrective feedback on how words work, how language works vs. partner or shared reading with peers. So, you might see a lot of reading going on in a classroom and centers or stations, but if it's a peer, that is not a good use of time in the classroom because the peer isn't going to be able to provide feedback like your seasoned teachers.
PA:
All right. Excellent. So, when I think about Structured Literacy, it's all about the skill and application of the skill, and some other practices might gear students toward that idea of guessing and memorizing, as you said, right? So, it's all about building the skill.
RT:
That's right. That's right.
PA:
How might school leaders make strategic leadership decisions that will benefit students with dyslexia?
RT:
My recommendation for leaders is that they embrace a Multi-Tiered System of Support. That system that is data- and instruction-driven. So, the data guides me into what instruction is necessary for each and every student, based on a system and the instruction is the focus. It's not about identification and diagnosis. It's about what type of instruction is needed to get every child in your school, in your building, in your district, reading on grade level. What is needed? We want to teach more than we want to test. So, that for leaders, you need to make that happen within your systems and that those systems are data-driven. So, look at universal screening. Who is at risk and what area are they at risk? Then, matching the instruction to that data. Progress monitoring the teaching. If you progress monitor, is the help helping? And if the help isn't helping, I need to change my practice to make sure maybe I need to be more intensive. Maybe I need to be more explicit. Maybe I need more time with a student. So, I need to make scheduling choices about everything around that system. Teacher professional development should be based on the students’ and the teachers’ needs. In the classroom data, as well as the school data. So, every district, every school, even classrooms are all unique. What does that individual teacher need to grow as a reading teacher and what do we need as a school? What is the data showing? Are we needing more instruction in phonics and more instruction in comprehension? What is the data showing in foundational skills? Or maybe it's another area of support? Also, I highly highly recommend this is an area that's a bit on my bucket list for research.
I believe that leaders should participate in the professional development with their teachers and even participate at a level that they're engaging in the activities, not just standing back in the room. They're not just popping in to say hi. They're actually participating, doing the activities, learning alongside. That speaks volumes to those teachers that this is important and that if a teacher is out, they could step in and they could teach. They could do Structured Literacy if needed. I mean at least enough to know to coach those teachers, to support those teachers. And, lastly, I would say prioritizing literacy in your district or your school as a leader.
Literacy trumps everything. If you can't read, you can't access the information in any of the other disciplines. So, it needs to be a priority in K–2. So, by third grade, they can move forward and access information moving forward. Now, you don't stop learning to read in third grade, but you at least have a level that you can gain information moving forward. If that's not happening, if you're not on grade level, then it's not that your instruction stops. It's just you're limited with what you can do.
PA:
School leaders. There is so much that you can do. I'm just going to recap a little bit there, Dr. Tolson. You shared so much. Literacy is No. 1. Data and instruction … “Show me the data” is what came to mind as I was listening to you, because then that leads to the best instruction. Leaders participating. I agree with you 100 percent. When the leaders are heavily involved in their learning with the teachers, the teachers feel like they're in it together. I love this phrase you said: “Is the help helping?” If the help is not helping, you're going to change that instruction, right?
RT:
Yes, that's right.
PA:
Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing that long list. For the leaders, you've got your work cut out for you here. Can you share some activities for the classroom, something practical that teachers can hear and maybe take away with them?
RT:
Absolutely. For my K–3, kindergarten through third grade teachers, foundational literacy skills. It's my favorite. I feel like we have to get students ready to read. Ready to read. The foundation has to be strong. In anything you do, you need a strong foundation.
An activity in foundational reading skills would be letter identification. What I like to do and this is how I was trained as a dyslexia therapist. I started most of my lessons out using those plastic 3D letters that you get at The Dollar Store and having students put those in alphabetical order, arrange them in an arc in alphabetical order A through Z in two minutes or less. Because a lot of the students that I worked with they had phonological deficits, but they also had difficulty learning the letters, the names, the alphabet. English is a symbol system, so if you don't know the letters, you're not going to decode well. So, what I recommend is that I would start out and they would come in, they would touch and name the letter strip, then they would organize their 3D letters in alphabetical order, and our goal was to be able for them to do that in two minutes or less. Don't underestimate the need for students to know those letters so well that it's in their subconscious they're not thinking about is that a B? Is that a D? Is that an A? They know it so well. So, I would start in my lessons with letter identification.
Next, embed phonological awareness in everything you do in the classroom. When you're lining up for recess, do rhyming with your students. So, if you're in small group, have them segment, have them blend, have them manipulate sounds, have them do games with sounds. Like Pig Latin was one my students always loved to do. It's sound play, and the more they do that, the better they are with processing the sound layer, that phonology layer. So, embed phonological awareness all through your day if you're a K–2 teacher. And then remediation, of course, in higher grades.
And oral language is my last recommendation, and there is an oral language hierarchy. Now, oral language is the foundation of reading comprehension. So, oral language if they speak it and they write it, they know those words. So, what I'm going to recommend for teachers is to do activities in naming. Name what you see, name what you're doing. Talk to me about that. Even I want to name a topic. Describe, describe what you see, describe two objects, name the attributes what color, what shape, what size, and then also do a lot in oral language with listening skills. Now, with listening and retelling, I suggest teachers read above like one or more grade levels, just slightly above the grade level that the students are reading. What you're doing when you do oral reading read-alouds with your students is you're increasing their exposure to more advanced language complex sentences maybe, and compound sentences and words and patterns that they aren't able to read themselves yet, and it challenges them. So, you're front-loading some language for them because they're not quite there yet on their own reading level. So, those are my K–3 suggestions.
For my older teachers out there, grades four to six, I'm going to recommend I would say something, No frill or fancy. No frill or fancy. I mean don't worry about looking pretty, this and that. Just teach them to read. Teach them the language. Teach them how it works. Teach explicitly the syllable types. Explicitly. There's six syllable types in the language. They need to know how language works directly so that they can read themselves.
If they're in fourth grade and they don't know how to read on grade level, get down to the basics. Time is of the essence at that point. Teach the syllable division patterns so that they can read multisyllabic words. You are not going to get your reading level up if you cannot read multisyllabic words accurately and fluently. That's where it is. That's how to get into the intermediate grade-level reading and that's that Latin layer. If they don't know how to divide multisyllabic words, they're going to stay in that K–3, that level of kindergarten through third grade.
Use a scope and sequence. Use a scope and sequence with your instructions so you can be systematic and cumulative. You'll prevent holes and gaps. Most of my clinical practice was older students reading two, three, four grade levels below and a lot of them had so many holes and gaps in their understanding that they just couldn't get to the next level. You're going to clean that up. You're going to make sure you're teaching so that kiddos do not have holes and gaps. That's what your scope and sequence is for. You are not going to miss anything that's essential so your kids can read on grade level.
Two more suggestions, Pam. Etymology. In grades four through six, teach based on word origin. Students want to know when they're older, how does the language work and why is that word that way? Why does the pH in phone make the sound like F? Why is that like that. OK, well, that's because it's a Greek word and if you explain it that way, then they understand, they feel big.
Use academic language, use etymology, tell them where those words come from. And lastly, I would use morphology instruction, where there’s vocabulary you're going to get the biggest bang for your buck is teaching meaningful units. So, you're not teaching. I mean, obviously we can teach so many words directly and explicitly, but only so many per week can a student directly learn. They're learning more words based on the meaningful unit and they're doing that through books, through reading. So, if they learn, I always like to use the example invisible. When they know that vis means see, they can see that route and they can do vision, visible. They can understand that those words with that morpheme means some relation to see and that's where you can increase their vocabulary.
PA:
All right, awesome. So many practical ideas and all with a focus on language. This is great. We want to eliminate those gaps. Thank you for sharing all of those strategies, and there's just so much more in regards to that explicit, direct instruction. Dr. Tolson, we know you've had some great stories of success using the methods you shared with us today. Please tell us about some that you treasure.
RT:
Sure, it's hard to pick those because I do have so many. One of my favorites is a student who was in first grade and I think she was going into first grade and I have to tell this because this is a message for teachers on the power of parents. So, I had someone call to get in my private practice and I typically had a waiting list and I was full, always very busy, and I had a parent call me insist on doing an evaluation or a baseline assessment on a student and this little girl was a twin and her sister was reading and she wasn't and that mama was so worried about her little one. So, I got her in on a Saturday and I did the assessment and I could definitely see areas that she could benefit in Structured Literacy. But I told the mom that I couldn’t. I mean there's a waiting list, we would have to wait. And she says, “Well, that's all fine and dandy, but I'm not leaving.” And my office was in the basement, by the way. “I'm not leaving here until you say you'll work with my daughter,” she said.
And I'm thinking I don't know how I'm going to get this woman out of my basement, like she refused to leave. Think about that. It just brings tears to my eyes a little bit, because that mom, they're relentless. Like when it's your child. You're like, “Yeah, that's fine, but my child needs your help and I'm not going to leave until you'll take it.” So, I was like, “OK, how about Saturdays?” Like. I was. How can you say no?
I have to tell you that little one I worked with her up until upper-elementary, I think so quite a few years. She had dyslexia and she is now a freshman in college, majoring in nursing.
PA:
Wow, I love it. That is a treasure. Most definitely.
RT:
So, that was one. The second one, I have to tell you. So, I was contacted by a school system for a high schooler who was not reading on grade level. Actually, he had comorbidity. So, he was on the spectrum of autism, but his reading level was at a kindergarten level and he was in ninth grade. And, so, this gentleman struggled. He couldn't even write three words on the paper and he wasn't reading even at a first-grade level. And I was brought in to consult with the school on how to assist the student with his reading.
I started working with this young boy and with a Structured Literacy curriculum I taught him the letters, the sounds, the sound, letter correspondence. I did everything I would normally do with a kindergarten student or a first-grader. And he's in high school. And, in the first year, his total reading comprehension score on the Woodcock-Johnson was at a mid-third grade. In one year. Now, when you think about that, he was able to independently read on a third-grade level and his mom came up to me and said, “You have changed our family's lives because I couldn't work because I had to support him. He made out his Christmas list and the only thing on his Christmas list was books.”
PA:
Love it.
RT:
And this is a high schooler. Think about it, with autism. So, you think about other areas. ADHD, executive functions. You think about other areas that kids struggle? Kids can learn how to read. The statistic I gave at the beginning even kids with dyslexia, 95% of kids can learn to read.
PA:
Yes, yes. Oh, so heartwarming. Thank you for sharing both of those stories. That 95% that is very evident here. We have to have that structured, direct, explicit approach. That's what it's telling me. And now, I wanted to ask what were your thoughts on assistive technology and helping dyslexic students overcome challenges.
RT:
Assistive technology levels the playing field for students with dyslexia. It provides access to the curriculum and is essential for academic progress. If they're reading and writing below grade level. So, accommodations are essential for support accompanied by remediation with targeted intervention focused on catch-up growth. I don't love assistive technology as a Band-Aid. I love it as an empowerment to access language and information and curriculum they need to be successful. So, if we have assistive technology alone, I don't feel that's doing a service because even if you're an older, struggling reader, you can learn how to read, write, and spell. So, it needs to be in tandem with remediation.
PA:
That makes perfect sense. Thank you for sharing that. The word is assistive technology, right? It exists to assist to enhance, to support. Lastly, as an advocate for students with reading challenges, what changes do you hope to see in American education?
RT:
My hope at this point is that colleges and university teacher-preparation programs align to the science of reading. We need to get this right at the onset. I was a teacher that didn't feel empowered to teach reading. I know what that feels like. Our teachers need to know the science and the structure of language to teach reading at the onset. I'm talking pre-service teachers here. If you want to specialize as a master's, which I'm part of a master's of dyslexia program, so we have teachers who are hungrier for more, but we need to get this right in our pre-service programs.
So, that's my first change. Second, I'd like all schools using a Multi-Tiered System of Support model that focuses on prevention of reading failure. Once we universally screen and we teach, we can prevent reading failure. And, lastly, universal understanding of dyslexia. I do dyslexia talks frequently and I still talk with educators and parents about the myths of dyslexia, what it is and what it isn't. So, I would love everyone to understand because it affects a large percentage of our population. Fifteen percent to 20 percent of students on the continuum from mild to moderate to severe of dyslexia. We need to know what that learning disability is about so we can understand and have empathy and support students with dyslexia.
PA:
So, in a nutshell, we're looking at teacher knowledge and application?
RT:
Yes.
PA:
Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Tolson. It's been a pleasure speaking with you. Please tell our listeners how they can learn more about you and how they can follow you on social media.
RT:
Yes, so I would love that. So, I am on all your social media platforms. So, rebecca Tolson, Dr. Rebecca Tolson. I have a Facebook page. Feel free to email me RTolson7783@gmail.com. I respond to email. I'm at Walsh University over at the Masters of Dyslexia Program. So feel free to reach out to me through Walsh University and I look forward to engaging on other social media platforms as well.
PA:
Thank you once again. This is Pam Austin, bringing the best thought leaders in education directly to you.
Narrator:
This has been an EDVIEW360 podcast. For additional thought-provoking discussions, sign up for our blog, webinar, and podcast series at voyagersopris.com/edview360. If you enjoyed the show, we'd love a five-star review wherever you listen to podcasts and to help other people like you find our show. Thank you.
